Before the auction began North dropped an Honour card which only East saw.
I cannot find a ruling in the law book.
What is the procedure and under which ruling?
@vulnerable said:
Before the auction began North dropped an Honour card which only East saw.
I cannot find a ruling in the law book.
What is the procedure and under which ruling?
Hi Vulnerable - the laws you want are 13 (2) and 16 (d) 1.
You allow the board to be played and then determine afterwards if East's play was influenced by the fact he knew North had a particular card e.g. did he take a finesse in a certain way.
... The Committee also reaffirmed that any card accidentally exposed prior to the commencement of the auction should be returned to hand, but information arising from its exposure would be subject to Law 16.
At most clubs I have played at there are a few players that do not play their cards close to their chest. As such, I will often have 13 cards presented to me. When I first started I asked our clubs guru about it and he said that he would warn each person once, then look if they continue to display their hand to him.
How does the law handle that sort of thing? Is that normal or considered cheating?
To my mind, if a player displays one or more cards to the enemy, then that should be AI. If displayed a K say, then my 50:50 2-way finesse becomes 100%.
In that instance, how should a director judge when there is a 50:50 2-way finesse and they go the right way but knew that it was the best way? 50% correct finesse, 50% incorrect finesse? If so, what if the rest of the room all got it correct, then they are getting a worse score than the offenders, do we now adjust back? This is why I think it should be the responsibility of the player to keep their cards hidden. (Different issue if a card falls out of the board whilst a director is moving them).
One of my partners told me of a time she asked an opponent to hold his hand up. His partner replied, "Oh, just take a good look; everyone else does".
Law 74C5... If you make an effort to look at an opponent's hand then you are committing an infraction. If they show it to you you have authorised information.
If someone drops a card then you can't really avoid seeing it, by that fact and usually everyone sees it. Seeing the card in a player's hand involves either carelessness by that play or a deliberate attempt to look.
I believe law 49 deals with the consequences of not concealing your cards in the play. Something about penalty cards IIRC - and law 24 deals with not concealing your cards during the auction.
Well, I must admit that I missed that tag, I had meant that I would take a look at the laws, but hmmm... maybe I will take a look at someone's hand too :)
"Before the auction began North dropped an Honour card which only East saw.
I cannot find a ruling in the law book."
So long as the dropping of the card was the fault of North alone, and that South would not have been able to see the face of the card had they been looking (e.g. if it was dropped under the table or onto North's lap), there's no problem of unauthorized information and you can allow the auction and play to continue. East is allowed to make use of the knowledge of where the card is, law 24 does not apply. Neither does law 13 as no pocket contained an incorrect number of cards. You would apply law 16D if the card had been exposed by an outside agent (such as a player at another table or a director or caddy), but law 74C5 states that: "....it is appropriate to act on information acquired by unintentionally seeing an opponent’s card".
When a player accidentally receives extraneous information about a board he is playing or
has yet to play, as by looking at the wrong hand; by overhearing calls, results or remarks; by
seeing cards at another table; or by seeing a card belonging to another player at his own
table before the auction begins (see also Law 13A), the Director should be notified
forthwith, preferably by the recipient of the information.
No mention there of HOW the extraneous information is received. I would interpret "accidentally" as being "not deliberately" as by an event beyond someone's control.
Since Law 16D is more precise than law 74C5 (it deals specifically before the auction begins) then I think it has priority - law 74C IMHO deals with circumstances when a player holds their cards in such a way as to let them be seen by accident.
Yes, sorry, Weejonnie, I think you're right. I was thinking it was during the auction. Having different rules to handle the consequences of a player's clumsiness if it occurs before the auction has begun (but after they've withdrawn their cards) or afterwards doesn't make much sense to me, and this has caught me out in the past. The White Book says (WB8.24.1):
"A card exposed during the auction period but before the auction has commenced (between a player inspecting his cards and a call being made) is dealt with under Law 16D1."
I remember telling the great Jack Marx, co-inventor of the Acol system and the Stayman convention, that I could see into his hand. He replied "Just look, everyone else does".
Comments
Hi Vulnerable - the laws you want are 13 (2) and 16 (d) 1.
You allow the board to be played and then determine afterwards if East's play was influenced by the fact he knew North had a particular card e.g. did he take a finesse in a certain way.
Thanks Stayman
The WBFLC minutes of 15 August 2017, item 7
At most clubs I have played at there are a few players that do not play their cards close to their chest. As such, I will often have 13 cards presented to me. When I first started I asked our clubs guru about it and he said that he would warn each person once, then look if they continue to display their hand to him.
How does the law handle that sort of thing? Is that normal or considered cheating?
To my mind, if a player displays one or more cards to the enemy, then that should be AI. If displayed a K say, then my 50:50 2-way finesse becomes 100%.
In that instance, how should a director judge when there is a 50:50 2-way finesse and they go the right way but knew that it was the best way? 50% correct finesse, 50% incorrect finesse? If so, what if the rest of the room all got it correct, then they are getting a worse score than the offenders, do we now adjust back? This is why I think it should be the responsibility of the player to keep their cards hidden. (Different issue if a card falls out of the board whilst a director is moving them).
One of my partners told me of a time she asked an opponent to hold his hand up. His partner replied, "Oh, just take a good look; everyone else does".
Law 74C5... If you make an effort to look at an opponent's hand then you are committing an infraction. If they show it to you you have authorised information.
How is seeing a card in their hand different to them dropping a card and you see it? Is there any mention of concealing your cards in the laws?
If someone drops a card then you can't really avoid seeing it, by that fact and usually everyone sees it. Seeing the card in a player's hand involves either carelessness by that play or a deliberate attempt to look.
I believe law 49 deals with the consequences of not concealing your cards in the play. Something about penalty cards IIRC - and law 24 deals with not concealing your cards during the auction.
Thanks, I will take a look when I get a chance later on...
@Martin I hope you mean only one of the interpretations of that statement. :-j
Well, I must admit that I missed that tag, I had meant that I would take a look at the laws, but hmmm... maybe I will take a look at someone's hand too :)
"Before the auction began North dropped an Honour card which only East saw.
I cannot find a ruling in the law book."
So long as the dropping of the card was the fault of North alone, and that South would not have been able to see the face of the card had they been looking (e.g. if it was dropped under the table or onto North's lap), there's no problem of unauthorized information and you can allow the auction and play to continue. East is allowed to make use of the knowledge of where the card is, law 24 does not apply. Neither does law 13 as no pocket contained an incorrect number of cards. You would apply law 16D if the card had been exposed by an outside agent (such as a player at another table or a director or caddy), but law 74C5 states that: "....it is appropriate to act on information acquired by unintentionally seeing an opponent’s card".
Law 16D1 merely says
When a player accidentally receives extraneous information about a board he is playing or
has yet to play, as by looking at the wrong hand; by overhearing calls, results or remarks; by
seeing cards at another table; or by seeing a card belonging to another player at his own
table before the auction begins (see also Law 13A), the Director should be notified
forthwith, preferably by the recipient of the information.
No mention there of HOW the extraneous information is received. I would interpret "accidentally" as being "not deliberately" as by an event beyond someone's control.
Since Law 16D is more precise than law 74C5 (it deals specifically before the auction begins) then I think it has priority - law 74C IMHO deals with circumstances when a player holds their cards in such a way as to let them be seen by accident.
Yes, sorry, Weejonnie, I think you're right. I was thinking it was during the auction. Having different rules to handle the consequences of a player's clumsiness if it occurs before the auction has begun (but after they've withdrawn their cards) or afterwards doesn't make much sense to me, and this has caught me out in the past. The White Book says (WB8.24.1):
"A card exposed during the auction period but before the auction has commenced (between a player inspecting his cards and a call being made) is dealt with under Law 16D1."
I remember telling the great Jack Marx, co-inventor of the Acol system and the Stayman convention, that I could see into his hand. He replied "Just look, everyone else does".