I thought Stayman was announced (rather than alerted) even if it does allow responses above 2S, as long as it still has the basic purpose of asking for four-card majors. For example, I have considered (but not actually played) using the 2NT and 3C replies to Stayman to show five spades (minimum and maximum respectively) – under Blue Book 4E2, I think the Stayman call itself would still be a normal announcement (although of course the high replies would have to be alerted, and perhaps 2S would too). Even more clearly, I think some pairs reply 2NT to Stayman when holding 4 cards in both majors – I don't think (under the current rule) that makes the Stayman call itself alertable either (after all, adding a response that shows 4-card majors can't really prevent something being an ask for 4-card majors!).
In reply to the original question, what matters for a Stayman announcement is what hand types opener will show on their rebid, not what hand types responder could hold for the call; if the rebids show 4-card majors with the normal arrangement (i.e. 2D = no 4-card major, 2H/2S = that 4-card major), the call is announced, even if responder might have made the call in order to change the meaning of their rebid rather than because they care about the response. For example, many pairs play that Stayman then 2NT is the only way to make a balanced invite, with a direct 2NT being artificial, but that doesn't make the Stayman alertable.
One point of alertability I'm not clear on: suppose the bidding goes 1NT, 2C Stayman; 2H, 2NT. Some pairs play that the 2NT in this sequence shows 4 spades; other pairs that it denies 4 spades. Are either of those meanings alertable, or are they both unalertable? (Which is more common probably depends on which club you're playing at!)
The current Blue Book (4E2) says "A Stayman 2 bid is announced in response to a natural 1NT opening or direct 1NT overcall, only where it is used to ask for a four-card major. Unusual replies such as the opener bidding 2NT or higher or 2S showing spades but not denying hearts are alerted. Stayman is announced whether or not it shows a four-card major. "
IMO 2C which asks for different responses according to whether you have a 4 or 5 card major is not Stayman in the traditional sense and I think you should alert the 2C response to 1NT.
@ais523 said:
One point of alertability I'm not clear on: suppose the bidding goes 1NT, 2C Stayman; 2H, 2NT. Some pairs play that the 2NT in this sequence shows 4 spades; other pairs that it denies 4 spades. Are either of those meanings alertable, or are they both unalertable? (Which is more common probably depends on which club you're playing at!)
I have written somewhere (in English Bridge?) that 2C non-promissory Stayman is announced as "Stayman" but a 2NT/3NT rebid by responder which does not show a 4-card major is alertable.
In think the expected/unalerted meaning of 1NT-2C-2H-2S is natural non-forcing, and the expected/unalerted meaning of 1NT-2C-2H-2NT is natural, non-forcing, with 4 spades.
Given that Stayman can(and often is) be non promissory a sequence such as 1NT 2C 2H 2NT showing invitational values without 4S would not be a surprise. It it did go 1NT 2C 2H 2S what sort of hand would responder have if non forcing? With 5 or 6 spades and a weak hand it would transfer into spades or bid 2S directly if not playing transfers. If it had a hand with both majors it would pass 2H as a fit had been found. It might be a hand with 4S and not 4H and invitational so partner could pass 2S with 4S and a minimum. I'm not sure why any of that is alertable.
It is very common in the US for 1NT, 2C; 2D/H, 2S to show an invite with 5 spades (the sort of hand that most players would bid 1NT, 2H=S; 2S, 2NT) – it makes it possible to stop a level lower, and also handles invitational hands with 5 spades and 4 hearts well. Obviously, that doesn't combine well with non-promissory Stayman.
To me, playing non-promissory Stayman, 1NT - 2C; 2H - 2S shows an invitational hand with 4S. 1NT - 2C; 2H - 2N shows invitational hand without 4S. 1NT - 2C; 2H - 3N shows game values with 4S (otherwise, without the 4S, one can immediately respond 3N).
We announce 2C as Stayman and alert 2NT rebid from responder.
Comments
As long as 2C simply asks for four-card majors and the only agreed responses are 2D, 2H, 2S, then announcing it as Stayman is sufficient.
I thought Stayman was announced (rather than alerted) even if it does allow responses above 2S, as long as it still has the basic purpose of asking for four-card majors. For example, I have considered (but not actually played) using the 2NT and 3C replies to Stayman to show five spades (minimum and maximum respectively) – under Blue Book 4E2, I think the Stayman call itself would still be a normal announcement (although of course the high replies would have to be alerted, and perhaps 2S would too). Even more clearly, I think some pairs reply 2NT to Stayman when holding 4 cards in both majors – I don't think (under the current rule) that makes the Stayman call itself alertable either (after all, adding a response that shows 4-card majors can't really prevent something being an ask for 4-card majors!).
In reply to the original question, what matters for a Stayman announcement is what hand types opener will show on their rebid, not what hand types responder could hold for the call; if the rebids show 4-card majors with the normal arrangement (i.e. 2D = no 4-card major, 2H/2S = that 4-card major), the call is announced, even if responder might have made the call in order to change the meaning of their rebid rather than because they care about the response. For example, many pairs play that Stayman then 2NT is the only way to make a balanced invite, with a direct 2NT being artificial, but that doesn't make the Stayman alertable.
One point of alertability I'm not clear on: suppose the bidding goes 1NT, 2C Stayman; 2H, 2NT. Some pairs play that the 2NT in this sequence shows 4 spades; other pairs that it denies 4 spades. Are either of those meanings alertable, or are they both unalertable? (Which is more common probably depends on which club you're playing at!)
The current Blue Book (4E2) says "A Stayman 2 bid is announced in response to a natural 1NT opening or direct 1NT overcall, only where it is used to ask for a four-card major. Unusual replies such as the opener bidding 2NT or higher or 2S showing spades but not denying hearts are alerted. Stayman is announced whether or not it shows a four-card major. "
IMO 2C which asks for different responses according to whether you have a 4 or 5 card major is not Stayman in the traditional sense and I think you should alert the 2C response to 1NT.
I have written somewhere (in English Bridge?) that 2C non-promissory Stayman is announced as "Stayman" but a 2NT/3NT rebid by responder which does not show a 4-card major is alertable.
In think the expected/unalerted meaning of 1NT-2C-2H-2S is natural non-forcing, and the expected/unalerted meaning of 1NT-2C-2H-2NT is natural, non-forcing, with 4 spades.
Given that Stayman can(and often is) be non promissory a sequence such as 1NT 2C 2H 2NT showing invitational values without 4S would not be a surprise. It it did go 1NT 2C 2H 2S what sort of hand would responder have if non forcing? With 5 or 6 spades and a weak hand it would transfer into spades or bid 2S directly if not playing transfers. If it had a hand with both majors it would pass 2H as a fit had been found. It might be a hand with 4S and not 4H and invitational so partner could pass 2S with 4S and a minimum. I'm not sure why any of that is alertable.
It is very common in the US for 1NT, 2C; 2D/H, 2S to show an invite with 5 spades (the sort of hand that most players would bid 1NT, 2H=S; 2S, 2NT) – it makes it possible to stop a level lower, and also handles invitational hands with 5 spades and 4 hearts well. Obviously, that doesn't combine well with non-promissory Stayman.
Regardless of where I wrote this, it is now Blue Book 4H2 (h).
To me, playing non-promissory Stayman, 1NT - 2C; 2H - 2S shows an invitational hand with 4S. 1NT - 2C; 2H - 2N shows invitational hand without 4S. 1NT - 2C; 2H - 3N shows game values with 4S (otherwise, without the 4S, one can immediately respond 3N).
We announce 2C as Stayman and alert 2NT rebid from responder.