Csv or xml
Good morning all,
Having scored a session with bridgemates, subsequently uploading a session to Bridgewebs, from our ebu pairscorer, we can select Xml or csv, XML is the default now I am aware (and what I have used for years).
A summary of why one should prefer Xml to csv would be much appreciated. Please. Backwards compatibility will never be an issue for our club, we just wish to follow best practise and understand why.
Thank you.
Comments
Its for the future expansion of Bridgewebs (and Ecats, Pianola). CSV is a proprietary format specific to Bridgewebs users. XML is a universal bridge standard for bridge information transfer. Currently, you need XML for Teams XImps upload to Bridgewebs (as there is nothing in CSV to indicate seating positions). In addition, usebio version 4 XML has many extra details for the ACBL market which they load on Bridgewebs sites and these will never be part of CSV files. It also allows files exported from Bridgewebs to be decoded using standard XML utilities whereas you would need to write special csv interpreters. Note also it is now used by Ecats for the simul pairs etc Previously they used this c,p,r,e.txt files which again was proprietary to Ecats and needed special encode/decoderd with limited chance of expansion. In short - for the future!
Following on, when I use the "XML" option to upload our weekly pairs to our Bridgewebs webpage it produces a "bad" lin file which cannot be used on, for example, BBO (All hands have North dealer and love all, and if there is a hand with a void it skips the board) - I have checked this with three different clubs.
This problem does not happen using the CSV option to upload to Bridgewebs.
Is there a non technical explanation of why there are two options, when one is not fit for use?
This is all very interesting. Xml appears to roll up the initial deal file into the file loaded into Bridgewebs whilst the csv upload appears to hold the pbn file as a separate entity in Bridgewebs. The original file created by the dealing machine (the pbn) could I guess be used by Bbo? This is certainly not a technical reply from me, just what I noticed about what happens. I feel we (the world in general) should consider moving on from csv which is after all a format from half a century ago. Hopefully a proper techie reply will appear in due course?The excellent Bo Haglund bridge solver software might be useful in this context?
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You need to use something like the excellent online tool at https://dds.bridgewebs.com/pbntolin/ to convert PBN format to the LIN format that BBO requires.
https://berwickbridgeclub.co.uk/
Thank you for the extra information , still a mystery about the bad lin file, someone hopefully will sort that out in due course?
I've just taken a look at this usng EBUScore Pairs. It appears that EBUScore Pairs does include the deal information in the XML file using the HANDSET element defined in USEBIO 1.0. This definition does not include fields to define dealer and vulnerability, presumably because they can be inferred from the board number. However, Bridgewebs is not doing this because as stated earlier in this thread the values in the LIN file downloaded from Bridgewebs show dealer North and vulnerability None. The other issue is that EBUScore is putting a "-" character in the board definition wherever there is a void in a suit and Bridgewebs is copying this character into the LIN file.
From the USEBIO specification it looks as though the relevant field in the XML file should be empty, rather than containing the "-". I'll forward this to BridgeWebs and Jonathan for information.
Incidentally, if the same XML file is uploaded along with the PBN file via Bridgewebs results administration then the LIN file downloaded from Bridgewebs is correct.
Thanks for your comments. As had been said, I know that converting the PBN file to a LIN file produces a "good" lin file . But this shouldn't be necessary. The only reason I have become aware is that some of my ex students like to see the results at my club and to replay the hands on BBO on a Teaching Table.
Let's see if Bridgewebs have a fix, or is it even possible that the issue is with EBU Score? (Surely not)
The issue is with EBUScore as well as Bridgewebs, because EBUScore is inserting an invalid character into the hand definition in the XML. However, that could be fixed just by changing Bridgewebs to filter out the invalid character.
Can you give more detail on the perceived problem? I have just used EBUScorePairs 1.2.27 Bridgewebs Upload (XML File) button just now with Hand Records which worked fine? (Similarly EBUClubPairs worked fine). There were some voids which Bridgewebs handled essentially just printing "-" in the Hand Records. Pianola also handles them fine. I agree the original Usebio1.0 specused Blanks afor voids and it would easy enough to change to Blanks if it is more "correct". (I just tried Blanks and Bridgewebs prints "--" (two dashes) if there is a blank)
This doesn't affect the Bridgewebs hand record displays other than in the way you described above. However, if you click on the Hands tab on the Bridgewebs results page and download the boards as a PBN or LIN file then the "-" inserted by EBUScore Pairs gets copied into the deal string in the file. This is not valid and causes problems for other software, e.g. my own Bridge Solver Online web app. As I said, the alternative to changing EBUScore would be for Bridgewebs to filter out the "-" character.
My original question related to why use CSV when XML appears "better/more modern" (etc..)
It is perhaps now "who can supply the detail on perceived problem ? "
It is all rather techie 🤔 and I think it's become a little side tracked , although it really is great to have such interest and comprehensive informative feedback.
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@JeffreyS said:
Well, you did say earlier in the thread "Thank you for the extra information , still a mystery about the bad lin file, someone hopefully will sort that out in due course?" :)
John - I understand the issue now. It just needs a simple fix in EBUScorePairs when writing the XML, to remove the dashes. (Note to Jonathan.....modDeal > PrintDealXML)
For pairs we upload to Bridgewebs as .CSV because it keeps the NS1 / EW1 etc pair numbers that the players saw on the Bridgemates (our standard for 2-winner movements)