Ghestem Trouble!
East opens 1S, South bids 3C to show red suits, but not alerted.
West raises to 3S and North bids 5C, doubled by East.
South now bids 5D which North eventually converts to 5H.
It appears that North has initially forgotten the system.
However South has a 5D bid with or without UI.
But is North in some sense fielding by converting D to H?
Or is it permissible for North to belatedly remember the system?
Comments
How did you determine that there is no logical alternative to South bidding 5D? Did you poll and if so what were the results of the poll?
No I didn't poll. Forgot to mention N is a passed hand.
These are all good players; so 5C can hardly be natural with a long suit.
Most likely logical explanation is that N holds something like Sxxxx, CAKx and Hxxxx in a red suit (x in the other).
Ie maximum for Pass and looking for slam.
I have tried to think what might happen with screens, ie no possibility of UI.
And keep thinking it would have been the same.
And yet I feel that E/W have been damaged, 5Cx or 5Dx are both more expensive.
If Pass is not a logical alternative, 5H/6D might be.
To answer the original question: North has no UI so is allowed to remember an agreement, or even guess that partner has the red suits. Partnership agreements and experience are authorised (information you had at the beginning of the hand). General Bridge Knowledge - that if partner overcalls 3C and pulls 5C then partner may not have clubs and may have a two-suiter - is authorised.
Edit: last sentence tweaked
When South bids 5D he has the UI that partner has forgotten by not alerting 3C. Could partner have trap passed with a shedload of clubs? I assume the quote that partner had a 5D bid anyway means longer diamonds, if not pass to make partner bid or xx is normal. I'd still ask South what he believes 5C meant. Who knows he may convict himself by his own mouth!
The number of previous occasions where this has happened is also relevant IMO. Hard to know but a question worth asking. If you wrote down the hands where someone had forgotten Ghestem (including Ghestem himself) you might put some strain on the world's known paper supplies.
"If Pass is not a logical alternative, 5H/6D might be."
Given that the 3C bidder was exactly 5-5 I imagine pass of 5CX would be equal length if you believed 5C could not be a place to play, so is indeed a logical alternative, and one good reason for not doing this is that partner's failure to alert 3C has significantly reduced the chance he/she will remove 5C if it goes back to him/her. In short taking blatant advantage of UI.
Thanks
Jeremy raises an interesting, though rather esoteric, point.
Maybe 'logical' was not the right word to use for my attempt at a plausible explanation of 5C.
I guess few pairs would have a system sophisticated enough for 5C to be logical!
I think we really need to see the hands to be able to comment further.
I believe the 3C bidder had
S 73
H Q10986
D AKQ74
C 2
The 5C bidder had
S A84
H K753
D 2
C J8643
Thanks Jeremy. Then the proper process would be to poll people with the South hand (remembering to tell them of the initial pass) to find out what they would do after the 5C bid. If, as you Mike (edit) expected, they all bid 5D, then pass is not a logical alternative and the result should stand. North is not in receipt of UI and is free to convert 5D to 5H.
Agree about polling and also that North is not in receipt of UI and, yes, a bid of 5C by a passed hand is vanishingly unlikely to be natural unless you are playing a very deep game and probably you are trying to convey you wish to save but are unsure as to which suit.
IMO there is no particular reason to bid over the x of 5C unless partner has forgotten before(for sure he has forgotten this time) and if it was North's job to alert his partner's 3C and he didn't then there is a gallon and a half of UI for South which militates against 5D. Most likely even if it wasn't his job because of the alerting rules online the 34 times he has previously forgotten Ghestem makes it a winner to bid 5D and gives South UI.
Out of interest, I put the hand as a poll to the BCL forum and received the following replies. Caution should be taken as contributors could see previous replies and it may well be that the contributors, whose NGs would tend around 55-63%, might not be peers of the player at the table. It may be that weaker players would tend more to bid 5D.
I asked: Vulnerability and type of scoring unknown. Partner alerts your 3C bid and explains it as Ghestem showing 5-5 in the red suits. What now?
A: I’m of the hook and can pass, but I can’t think of a hand that wants to play 5c that passed initially - so I think p actually thinks I have clubs and thus the poll. Pass is clearly a logical alternate though.
B: Hard to contemplate a hand where partner has very long clubs yet elected not to open.
But partner clearly rejects my red suits, and clearly wants to preemptively raise the ante now, past 3C, which partner could have passed. So why should I tell partner, again, that I have the red suits. When in a hole…….
C: Surely it must be some type of cue bid? I think partner must be weak with the reds and is asking me to choose which one. I'll bid 5H.
D: 5D - equal length, no honour or perhaps 2 Js
E: Pass, the opposition's X has let me off the hook and my partner can choose what to bid; I have already told him/her my hand.
B (again, and replying to C): If it's a cue bid, with the reds, it cannot be a slam orientated cue? Are you suggesting it could be a pick a suit cue? Why run the risk of bidding a new suit as a cue, why not rather, if you cannot stomach bidding your longer red suit, bid 4NT which can never be to play, and then I can pick my weaker suit?
F: Pass. Can't see a reason to bid - equal length, so even if, as Chris suspects, 5C is a cuebid, I'm happy to pass the buck. And there's just a chance p has been messing about...
G: Is partner behind a screen so that I/we did not see their alert and explanation to their screen mate?
Partner is a passed hand and as others have said, cannot hold a hand that wants to play in 5C opposite a hand that shown 5/5 in the reds.
We could just pass and hope partner comes to their senses or bid 5D when I think there is evidence to suggest partner may have forgotten the system or has made up a bid to get us to bid our longer red suit, if I was confident that partner has the system right, I will just bid 5D, my best suit.
C (again and replying to B): I was fishing for an explanation! If I'm playing with someone sensible then 5C has a sensible meaning that partner expects me to interpret. I'm doing my best!
H: Partner could, but didn't bid 4C so perhaps they have 7 clubs and couldn't open because they also had 4 spades. I'm passing.
I: As others have said, at this vulnerability its hard to imagine partner has 7 clubs and hasn't opened, indeed some weak hands with only 6 clubs might also open 3C here.
5C from a passed hand has to be saying we should be sacrificing, so it looks like he thinks 4S was making so won't have a strong spade holding. Why has partner chosen 5C and not 4S or 4NT?
Surely no sane partner would go straight to the 5 level without support for one or both our suits so the most likely explanation is he has support and wants to ensure a club lead in case the opponents bid 5S. Fortunately I don't have to decide, the X has given partner another bid. As I have already shown 5-5 and with better diamond than hearts I have nothing more to say, I'm passing and leaving partner to choose the red suit as he could still have unequal length.
J: If I feel I can trust partner that 5C was a cue/lead directing bid of some sort, then I will pass now to show equal length.
If I feel I can't trust partner to choose a red suit, then I will bid 5D.
Barrie Partridge - CTD for Bridge Club Live